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What Works and Days translation for quotes?
Pandora in Theogony?
This article cites Hesiod's Theogony, repeatedly, but Pandora is not in that poem. In Works and Days, the name "Pandora" specifically comes from the fact that "all who lived on Olympus gave a gift" (81-82). In the Theogony (560ff), the text says that only Hephaestus and Athena contribute to the woman that is made. Ergo, she cannot be Pandora.
Furthermore, Athena's role isn't even the same in the two poems. In Theogony, she gives the woman a veil. In W&D, she teaches Pandora how to weave.
Significantly, the unnamed woman in Theogony is identified as the first woman, but Pandora does not receive that label. Furthermore, the woman in Theogony has no jar of evils to open, a la Pandora in W&D.
In both cases, a woman is made because Zeus is mad at Prometheus, but there is no indication that one should interpret them as one and the same. Doing so is to read the texts with the mindset that Hesiod was trying to write sacred texts (in a Biblical sense) that should be reconciled with each other. But he explicitly tells us that this is not what he's doing. W&D is designed to teach his brother not to be an ass. Theogony is the Muses' version of how Zeus came to power. Neither one disguises its purpose. Meshing the two poems into one sacred narrative of creations ignores the stated goal of each.
I'm not going to change the page itself because there is a fair amount of talk by people who seem pretty invested in this, but I maintain that talking about the woman in Theogony and Pandora in W&D as identical and drawing evidence from both, without even acknowledging the vastly different nature of the two poems is a misuse of the evidence.
Copied from my talk page:
Thanks for spotting the error in my recent edit to Pandora's box. I'm currently working on 'modern' literary and artistic interpretations of Pandora and remembered the detail that Hera gifted her with curiosity without checking the Hesiod source. Hera's gift is mentioned in any number of post 2000 books but I can't find any old and reputable source that does so. I'll continue looking, because it bothers me where that story comes from; but if you already know, I'd be grateful if you could give me the reference. My best guess is that it was slipped into the 15th C Latin version of Hesiod, or it may be in the Calderon drama. Sweetpool50 (talk) 11:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Sweetpool50: I don't know where the curiosity meme comes from, but I've looked before and I don't think it is from any ancient source. But I could be wrong, it's hard to prove a negative ;-) Paul August ☎ 12:13, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
I notice your name as among the editors of the Pandora article, so I guess you may eventually be looking at the additions I uploaded this evening. If the last section there seems to end abruptly, that's because there is another to follow. So far I wanted to integrate bits taken from already existing sections into a new context. It was all getting rather complicated, so I decided to go ahead with what I had so far. I may not get another chance for a day or two! Sweetpool50 (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
End of copied text
Using the term "misogynous' in the lead
Misogyny is a pretty subjective term. I disagree with including the term in the lead. I am going to be bold and remove it. If you disagree with this edit, feel free to undo, just please comment in here explaining why you feel it should be undone. JDDJS (talk) 21:37, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- It would help if you knew something about the subject instead of going off half-cocked with your subjective views. Hesiod's account of Pandora is notorious for its misogyny and I've provided just one reference (from a scholarly introduction) out of many that are possible. That wasn't a bold edit, it was plain ignorant. Sweetpool50 (talk) 23:58, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
- Your tone is pretty close to making personal attacks and unnecessary. You also don't seem to understand my point. It's not about sources. Misogyny is subjective, and we don't usually use subjective terms like that. For example, we don't say Meryl Streep is the best actress of her generation, despite there being multiple sources saying that. We instead say "Cited in the media as the 'best actress of her generation' ". JDDJS (talk) 01:03, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
- I take JDDJS's point about the use of the word "misogynous", and approve of the recent rewording by JDDJS, as amendeded by Sweetpool50. Paul August ☎ 09:32, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, Paul August. I am glad we seem to be arriving at a satisfactory version. My annoyance at the former intervention was because I interpreted the quibble over wording as an example of WP:WIKILAWYERING. The adjective 'misogynous' derives originally from the noun 'misogyny', which refers to an predominating attitude, not to a subjective evaluation; used of Hesiod's stance, it is a legitimate as well as a well-documented description. Though the word might and indeed has been applied to Hesiod's subjective attitude, there should be no objection to use of the term 'misogynous' in itself. That is a subjective use of WP guidelines that was never intended. Sweetpool50 (talk) 16:46, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Josef Abel Painting Title and subject
The title of the painting in the 'Works and Days' section by Josef Abel is 'Prometheus, Merkur, and die Pandora' in German, which translates to 'Prometheus, Mercury, and Pandora' in English. The seated figure is Prometheus, not Zeus. Hence why the same painting is used on the 'Prometheus' page in German Wikipedia.
Pandora is the standing female figure on the left, made evident by the pithos she holds; and Prometheus, recognizable by the fact he's holding a torch, is trying to protect Man (his creation) from her. Zeus is not in this painting. Sweetpool50 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 21:24, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
- The point at issue is that there is, however plausible, no source given for the interpretation given the scene by the editor, and certainly not in the painting's German title. The editor alse needs to learn how to sign his name to his remarks here. Sweetpool50 (talk) 00:09, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that the central seated figure is Prometheus not Zeus (I've also added some description to caption). I also think that IP 22.214.171.124's interpretation—that the (clay?) figure on the pedestal is Prometheus' creation Man, and that Prometheus is trying to protect Man from Pandora—is correct, but we would need a reliable source (see [[WP:RS) to assert this. Paul August ☎ 10:24, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Dilidor has removed a sourced statement from the lede and deleted another that is sourced in a later section with the misleading summary "gross over-linking; removing absurd statement that Pandora influenced Jewish theology". He should explain here first the justification for such heavy-handed removal of sourced material. Sweetpool50 (talk) 19:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
Why did Zeus give her the box?
Reference Needed for This Claim
The statement "It has been argued that Hesiod's interpretation of Pandora's story went on to influence both Jewish and Christian theology..." needs a reference. Who argued this and what was the argument? Any statement starting with "It has been argued..." comes across as an unsupported attribution (aka "Weasel Words"). JessIAm (talk) 18:14, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
- The lead summarises what is argued in the rest of the article. The sources you demand are cited in the section "Pandora's relationship to Eve". If you'd take the trouble to learn how Wikipedia works and to read the whole of the article, you might learn that its function is not to confirm the prejudices of readers. Sweetpool50 (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
The article currently does not cite Hera or explain why Zeus gave her the box; both are questions discussed above.
- (curiosity from Hera) Sweetpool50 (talk) 11:51, 17 January 2018.
- (why Zeus gave her the box) 126.96.36.199 (talk) 06:50, 14 May 2023.
- Lots of sites answer this.
- This site answers both. https://www.greeka.com/greece-myths/pandora/